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clark153

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Genesys Licensing
« on: October 12, 2007, 02:18:28 PM »
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I'd like some feedback on the way Genesys licenses their software.  How do they license, what are the good points, bad points etc...?

Thanks

tony

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Re: Genesys Licensing
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2007, 02:55:56 PM »
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  • Whoa... a "don't get me started" topic...  >:D

    OK - Genesys bases the majority of it's Routing (and some of the other Solutions) licensing on something called staff (SDN) and technical (TDN) licenses.

    The majority of SDN licensing is based on the number of potentially occupied seats, being a reflection of the number of Persons in your Config.  So, if you have 2500 staff in CME, you need to [i]buy [/i] 2500 SDN licenses (for routing).

    The technical licenses are similar, in that, if you need Telephony Ports or a Server component for a "Service", they are licensed on how many you could potentially use.  For example - if you have 500 DN's (Ports) you need to [i]buy [/i] 500 licenses.  Similarly URServer requires a license per instance, etc.

    Is this fair? IMHO - no.  You are paying for the [i]potential [/i] to use *all* of your licenses *at the same time* when, in reality, you would never be able to do that.  Even if you had 2500 staff you will never have them all sitting down at the same time; as a maximum, maybe 75% of your staff will be on site - and that's only if you have the physical capacity to seat them all!

    Fair or not - them's the rules!

    ...discuss...?  ::)

    Tony

    Offline Adam G.

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    Re: Genesys Licensing
    « Reply #2 on: October 12, 2007, 03:33:40 PM »
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  • The financial aspects are based around the number of agent positions.

    Offline cavagnaro

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    Re: Genesys Licensing
    « Reply #3 on: October 12, 2007, 05:44:14 PM »
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  • That is interesting, so lets say i have only 10 sdn licenses, this means i can only create 10 agents on CME or that only 10 agents can login simultaneously on Genesys?

    tony

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    Re: Genesys Licensing
    « Reply #4 on: October 13, 2007, 11:41:58 AM »
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  • [i]<I just wrote up a whole raft of information and deleted it before I posted it... DOH! I'll try again...>[/i]

    (Thanks for the reminder, Pavel...)

    SDN's are for your seats so, yes, you need as many licenses for as many Agents as you may want to Login, concurrently.

    The licenses are checked out via either the TServer (for voice) or another media Server and, if my recollection is correct, the licenses are checked out of FlexLM.  If you go over the limit with SDN's, you simply won't be able to log on any more staff.

    TDN's are for components on your Servers and, as an example, you would have 1 license per URS.  Add another URS without the necessary license in FlexLM and it simply won't function.

    The financial model for licensing usually includes an oncost from a third party, who support the product, as a 3rd line.  Meaning, the more SDN's you have, the higher the cost with the 3rd party.  If you go direct to Genesys, the oncost is removed but you then only have Genesys Support for your products.

    Other permutations can be that the more licenses you purchase, the less they cost per license.  Also, you could arrange a Golden Key license which allows you to have as many SDN's as you wish without a maximum but this is costly and you will more than likely have to prove to Genesys the maximum number you are actually using, to determine an annual cost.

    A (small) upside is, if you have a wholly seperate development environment, you usually find the licenses are free since they are not supporting any of your working business systems.

    Tony

    Offline victor

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    Re: Genesys Licensing
    « Reply #5 on: October 14, 2007, 03:51:07 PM »
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  • Genesys Licensing is one of the topics that has always been a mystery to me. Also, I feel that most of the licensing rules are not truly justified.

    The concept of per-user license, despite everything you might have heard, does not benefit anyone but the company that is selling the product. Genesys, like many other companies that offer per-seat per-function licensing, claims that this enables smaller companies to enjoy the same functionality as bigger companies for far less. Also, it enables larger companies to fine-tune their call centers costs without paying for the functionality that they do not need.

    In my honest opinion, Genesys just got greedy.

    Here are the reasons why I think that Genesys licensing structure does not benefit the end user:

    Genesys requires purchasing all the license in advance. Without a bulk purchase order, per-seat costs can be twice than what you would pay if you buy all at once. Most call centers do not start with 3000 people at once, but gradually grow. Purchasing 3000 seats when in the beginning you only have 1700 people onsite is hardly beneficial to the end user.

    Got OCS, URS and all the other bells and whistles? You need to pay for them upfront, even if you do not start using them 6 months from now.

    Want to hook up a NiceLog to T-Server? You must pay for recording licenses for all of the seats in the call center, not only the active ones. In fact, if you ever decide to do anything to improve on Genesys, or replace some of their products, you still need to pay for the license of the replaced product, even if you are using your own application and not Genesys.

    Want to use hot-standby option for T-Server, because there is a chance that it might fail? You must pay for HA option. Somewhere along the way, everyone forgot that HA is needed only because T-Server decides to go down south from time to time and unless you have HA, you are stuck with an angry SV.

    If you own several call centers, you cannot just take the license from one center and apply it to the other. Instead, you need to purchase the new ones. Does it make sense to any of you? I mean, if we are paying for functionality and we are paying per seat, why would it matter which call center we use it at?

    Annual support fees are another joke. You cannot just start support contract from when you want, cancel when you do not want, and then start again. For example, you are required to buy the first year of support. If you do not, and then decide after one or two years that it is time for you get some help, you must pay for all the preceding years as well. We had a client who had several call centers, and then mouthballed one of them for two years. Once the need for that call center has arrived, Genesys demanded payment for the last two years even though the call center was offline. I do not think this is benefiting customer, do you?

    If you are a large company with a lot of subsidiaries, you cannot make one of your subsidiaries a Genesys reseller. I guess, if you do that, it would be depriving the existing resellers of their right to collect half of the annual fees. It also forces client to shell out twice as much in maintenance fee and become completely dependent on their Genesys vendor for all of future Genesys projects. I do not see how it is benefiting clients.

    Genesys products are designed to penalize clients for combining Genesys technology with other third-party vendors. IVR, Nice, Routing, Callback, custom functionality all requires Genesys licenses on top of license from third-party manufacturers.

    There is a reason why Genesys did not include softphone as part of their framework, because it usually generates 100K+ per client in additional revenue to either the vendor or Genesys. Selling Genesys CTI without softphone is like selling a car to a person without a driving wheel, break and gas pedals and then requiring them to buy this from your brother across the lot.I don't think this is sincere, do you?

    Don't get me even started on their SDK! You need to pay for SDK, then once you develop something with it, you need to pay to Genesys for each connection to T-Server and for each DN that is going to be affected by your product. If you force people to pay for development kit, at least have the decency not to charge for their creativity. If we would create a network application with C++ on Windows, we do not expect nor would we accept Microsoft to charge for each TCP/IP connection our application makes. Why do we let Genesys get away with it? They tout this Genesys Developer Program, but the way it is structured, it actually penalizes developers to use their T-Server platform. When you sell that application, Genesys requires additional licensing for each DN that would be affected for it. In essence, you end up in this omni-directional profit-sharting partnership with Genesys, where Genesys would get parts of all your sales, but would not share any of your loses. Remind me again, why exactly I am doing this?

    Overall, the idea seems to be: if you are using Genesys in anyway to benefit yourself, pay up.

    I think there are two different cultures in Genesys, one developed by those Russian boys who had the brains and creativity to put together a really awesome product that has grabbed a third of the whole market share, and then you have all those leeches who try to suck as much money out of the client as they can to justify their salary and/or existence (like in regional office for Genesys in Japan), knowing pretty well that client will oblige given that there is no other viable alternative.

    Genesys needs to re-evaluate its current licensing policies, because regardless of how innovative and flexible their products are, if clients start to feel company taking advantage of them, it is just a matter of time before something else would pop up to replace them.




    tony

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    Re: Genesys Licensing
    « Reply #6 on: October 14, 2007, 08:25:05 PM »
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  • Wow Vic - that was quite a show!

    I notice there was no mention of the license files and how they are dependant on the Server ID.  Basically means one license per host and no swapping, because it won't work anywhere else - unless you've paid for HA.

    ...and - if the solution is so very expensive to start with, your customer is bound to be sceptical about any new functionality being provided later on - expansion (costs), enhancements (costs), upgrades (costs), development (costs)...

    Since we're about it - how about the other oncosts?  I think they should also get a mention;

    Genesys Training
    Genesys PS
    Solution Contractors(!)
    First Line Support
    Designers
    Developers
    Testers
    Third Party Support

    ...and the other stuff;

    Network/Bandwidth
    Subscriber Access
    Switches - ACD
    Hardware/Hosting
    Database Licensing
    Data Warehousing

    - Put the whole lot together makes the whole solution feckin (no swearing on the Forum - is feck a swear word?) expensive.

    I had suggested once that not only should Genesys provide you with the tools to do the job but throw in the engineers too, for the sort of money they are asking for their licenses...

    I do feel a bit like the BBC advertising standards ([i]they are not allowed to advertise[/i]) when I say that "other solution providers are available"...

    So what are we saying? Don't buy Genesys??? I think I'll start another thread on "how to get the best out of Genesys..." rather than a very long rant about the costs... I mean, there are ways and means to get your agreement and T&C's right with Genesys from the off, as long as you remember that you are the customer and you don't necessarily have to sign on the dotted line straight away - you can actually negotiate.  Now that surely has some value? :)

    [i]PS Would anyone like to know how to reduce their SDN licensing costs...?[/i]

    Tony
    « Last Edit: October 14, 2007, 08:31:16 PM by Tony Tillyer »

    Offline cavagnaro

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    Re: Genesys Licensing
    « Reply #7 on: October 15, 2007, 12:18:16 AM »
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  • Wow what a topic.
    I have to agree with both of you and add something here, as some of you may know i work for an Alcatel(-Lucent) Partner, we used to be Alcatel diectly some years ago, but for money issues they sold the e-division (medium/small business) to externals.
    This was the beging, the issue that Victor mentions for paying support for even those years you didn't requested anything came from Alcatel, once it became Alcatel-Lucent the story got worst. We are "used" to pay for everything, a small and stupid example is this:

    Alcatel has a product which is called MyMessaging (I like to call it MyMess) and it is basically a Unified Messaging System integrated to the PBX and works nice with TTS and an embeded TTS Automatic Operator. For this i need several licenses from OTUC (Suite Name) and the PBX itself starting from the SIP Trunk Group to make them work (even when it's logic that i bought MyMess licenses i need forcely that license and it is not included...). With this you can create a Voice Mail for a user, or better said, could create, why this, since the new release of the PBX i HAVE to buy additional license on the PBX to allow a user have a external SIP Voice Mail...WHAT A SH*T!
    I need to buy licenses to create the user on OTUC, and now to create the USER on the PBX! Like if this software allows me to interconnect to other PBXs! This is insane, i really was a fan of Alcatel improvements, their softwares, the ideas, but now....a complete mess, we can't get a patch that works at first time, always fails and a repatch is needed, really don't know what is this problem about, they doesn't tests enought, and they even have what is called OmniGenesys (A Genesys sold by Alcatel, not Genesys) but is exactly the same. Support is attended by only two guys i believe, i opened a eSR and they told : no way to do that, asked Genesys and (it took like 5 months to do it) we did it. I even know that some Alcatel took Genesys developers to their side to make the OXE OBX work better with them, and it really does, but the cost of that is insane.

    Every costs policy i see on Alcatel it goes reflected to Genesys in a short time. I started doing nice ideas for customers, but the licenses price they had to pay was unbelievable expensive and all the ideas went down.

    I have started already thinking on another possibilities, like Asterisk....i admit i don't like it but...the $$$ is the one that rules and now to achieve what i do usually with URS and some advanced DB and SQL procedures are not that hard to do...

    The bad news are for the customers, the prices they have to pay for a guy (Professional Services) to come to do a job that is not so hard and pay him a fortune for almost nothing.

    I really but really hope that Genesys, or better said, Alcatel finds another way to do extra $$$ apart from charging for every click we do and our ideas and improvements for a customer to be happier with what they already paid for.

    PS Tony i also know how to optimize licenses use...i'd like to know your tips....

    Offline victor

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    Re: Genesys Licensing
    « Reply #8 on: October 15, 2007, 05:45:03 AM »
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  • I am glad to see that I am not the only one who has been recently outraged by Genesys licensing and PS fees. Right now, we are about to lose a huge contract to Avaya because idiotic Genesys Japan is too greedy fails to understand that when client has Avaya for PBXs and IVRs, the only reason they would consider using Genesys is because they already have it on their site. If you force them to pay up unreasonable support fees for call centers that were not in use for over a year and then demand that they pay much higher rates on tech support, it will cause client to just leave Genesys as it is right now, and slowly migrate all of their operations to Avaya.

    All small call centers would move to Asterisks or some other cheaper version of CTI, since Genesys Express has been a failure (at least in Japan), all all the big ones are slowly being clobbered by extremely well-designed Avaya 8720 + G650(700). The only reason why Genesys CTI is still being used by large call centers is because clients did not have a chance to assess other alternatives now that 8720+AES is out there.  IF Genesys does not re-think its licensing policies as well as put a lot more muscle into it SIP offerings, I would guess that its share would shrink to under 10% during the next four years.

    Why 4 years? Because this is an average time for a hardware lease and I doubt that Avaya would be standing by idly given that it has an upper hand in PBX, Reporting and IVR.

    Genesys, if you are reading this - I am a Genesys CTI engineer and perhaps I do not know everything when it comes to operating a global business, but I know that bad licensing policies + end-user reliance on PBX + Genesys vendor reliance on PBX revenue does not bring anything good.

    Get your licensing policies in order, reign in commercial nepotism and ambivalence in regional offices and improve the quality of your products immediately, because I staked my whole well-being on your success and I do not feel all that comfortable right now.

    And most importantly, stop expecting your Genesys vendors whose income is largely generated by sales of PBX and Cisco to continue to pitch your products. If Avaya 8720 is just a beginning. Get your act together, and show us the brilliance that we have come so long to expect from you.

    Best regards,
    Vuc

    clark153

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    Re: Genesys Licensing
    « Reply #9 on: October 16, 2007, 06:09:11 PM »
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  • Thanks for the detailed responses, it is appreciated.

    Technical licenses - are these licenses that you have to purchase or just a way of Genesys to control how many servers are being used?

    Offline cavagnaro

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    Re: Genesys Licensing
    « Reply #10 on: October 16, 2007, 08:58:25 PM »
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  • both, you pay for them to limit yourself

    tony

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    Re: Genesys Licensing
    « Reply #11 on: October 18, 2007, 12:45:17 PM »
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  • A Technical License (TDN) relates to a specific instance of a Server component installation.  It is contained within a license file, which is applied for use through FlexLM, on a specified Server.

    A Seat License (SDN) relates to Agents Logins.  It is contained within a license file, which is applied for use through FlexLM, on a specified Server.

    A commercial model for licenses is based on whatever your company has agreed with Genesys and it may not necessarily line up with the number of TDN or SDN Licenses you have available for use.

    HTH?

    Tony