Genesys and Asterix

[victor]

Hi,

today, I found a very new document on Genesys support site worth a look! Its date of release is 5/5/2008 (today), so probably I am the first one to read through it.

I was learning here about Asterix for a while and this new (and very nice ) document titled "SIP Server 7.5.0 - Asterisks Integration" left me very puzzled.

Reading through the document, I see that Asterisk is used as a gateway or a remote switch, with Genesys CTI relying on its own SIP functionality for call control. The more I read, the sillier the whole plan sounds: you have a an Agent using Asterisks as its local switch, with CTI toolbar that connects to Genesys SIP T-Server using t-lib and communication between Asterisks and Genesys CTI is done via SIP!

Why not just stick to the standard model of using CTI interface of an underlying switch, such as the case with Avaya (MAPD/AES), Nortel (MLINK, Symposium), NEC (OAI) and so on?

Would it not make sense to have a configuration where Astersisks would be doing all of SIP-related work and have Genesys do what it has always been doing - CTI? I see that Asterisks offers an interface for CTI-control, and there are a myriad of CTI packages already available for it. Some of them have been in use for quite some time, while others (http://code.google.com/p/asterisk-cti/) have only been started recently. Why am I not seeing anything from Genesys here? Or did I miss something really big? I searched for T-Server for Asterisk but could not find anything YET.

More importantly, in a present configuration as suggested by this paper, can someone please tell me the benefit of combining Genesys SIP Server with Asterisks?  Under which circumstances would you want to use Genesys SIP T-Server with Asterisks? Given how expensive Genesys SIP seat license are, it would make so much more sense to me to have Asterisks for SIP and just pay for the basic framework/routing/etc license that existed till now. This way, I cut my spending on PBX and keep my Genesys intact while have some extra cash for something else.

What am I missing here?

Vic

[thicke]

I think this is for the case where you have you Asterisk server acting as the gateway with something like a Digium board installed. This means Asterisk is the PSTN gateway and the only link to the telephony network.  SIP server is your only option for integrating this type of hardware into a Genesys environment. Why not make a TServer for Asterisk?  First off, I haven't seen anyone that's gotten past the Alpha stage developing code for an Asterisk CTI interface.  Second off, why would you want to when you've got SIP, which is an open standard?

I'm not sure what doc you were reading, but I've used [url=http://www.voip-info.org/wiki/view/Asterisk+Genesys+SIP+Server+Integration]this one[/url] in the past to grok SIP/Asterisk integration.

[cavagnaro]

I do have same document as for Asterisk as for Cisco, same idea. The link you posted is a exact copy/paste of the Genesys document.
I doesn't see neither the advantage of using SIP with Genesys, only can think on a low price solution to get voice to agents and have a good CTI as Genesys, however I'm not sure what you can do with URS and what can't yet.
To me this is an effort of Genesys trying to not loose ground against Asterisk, however a call center that points to an Asterisk solution means that they want a free open source solution thinking of freedom of licenses, why would they choose Genesys?

I got that document months ago Vic, I'm sure it is only an update because of SIP Server release.

Not long ago I had a discussion with a Genesys guys asking about SIP Server (TServer for SIP, for not saying Asterisk directly) about the usage of my normal sdn and tdn licenses for making it work, at a start he told me that yes, I can use my actual sdn and tdn licenses for it, and I was happy to know, what a great idea i thought, just reuse your platform to have an Asterisk which can sometimes and only sometimes on small budget projects of the customer is needed. However a few days later the guy wrote me saying that Genesys (or Alcatel don't know exactly) commercial guys told him that no, I should purchase more licenses for use SIP Server...I said...what? And knowing now that they are exactly the same and paying more for an open source (!!!) code! was:
1. hilarious
2. sad, had to go with bad news to customer and telling him that they were more expensive than a normal genesys license was shocking.

So we had to launch with Asterisk alone, now the risk is that they are getting more and more with Asterisk stuff, finding that it is even sometimes not necesary for the kind of business customer has. He will lose some stuff like statistics, some URS stuff but the money they will save and their customers get basically the same, is almost killing the idea of Genesys...when price does a huge difference there is nothing i can say about all advantages Genesys has if he can't buy them...

Just wonder what is the point of Genesys with this SIP Server...what is the road map they have for this product, is this the middle step for they to get their own PBX with a Digium card inside a box?

[thicke]

Oh...I see. You guys are talking about using Asterisk alone.  That makes the conversation make much more sense now.

[victor]

Ok, so based on the conversation so far, we have:

1. There is no Genesys T-Server for Asterisks
2. You must pay Genesys SIP license if you want to use open-source switch

To me, this simply does not make sense. In a way, isn't Avaya a SIP switch? I am not sure how Genesys can justify requiring SIP licenses for Asterisks but not for Avaya and every other SIP-based PBX there with a brand name. Wait, isn't Alcatel's OMNI also a SIP?

I wonder, if it is just a few months beforesomeone is going to develop an AVAYA-to-ASTERISKS signaling proxy server, thus allowing T-Server for Avaya to connect to ASTERISKS... All you need is to emulate Avaya AES signaling and it should work. Legally, all one would need to worry about is getting an ok from Avaya to emulate their protocol. And, if I were Avaya, I would not object to it. After all, if Avaya would want to stiffle Genesys expansion into SIP, allowing Asterisks-to-Avaya signaling proxy might just do that. Is it technically feasible? Who knows, but then again, I doubt many of us thought of having an open-source switch even being considered for an enterprise-level job! Come to think of it, why isn't there open-sourced Genesys out there yet?

...Dangerous thoughts, dangerous thoughts....must be the devil

[cavagnaro]

Well Alcatel Omni (OXE) does has support for SIP but a basic level, we can't use those extensions as CCD agents for example nor Genesys monitored agents.
We already can integrate with Asterisk but only for transfering calls from PSTN to sip agents, I did the same with SIP Server and works... But still need Genesys licenses...:s

[René]

Hi Vic,

Thanks for opening interesting topic . I'll try to express my opinion/point of view.

At first point I don't see any need for TServer for Asterisk. Why? Because SIP Server simply provides you with similar sets of features as dedicated TServer for Asterisk. The big plus in my humble opinion is usage of SIP protocol. I know that Asterisk is open source and CTI link is (would be?) free as well - source code is available - but we are still talking about another "one-switch-only" protocol. And nobody can guarantee stability of implementation and set of features supported by that protocol.

You're right that it's necessary to pay for Genesys SIP license but you need to buy licenses when using TServer for Asterisk as well. Comparing prices of required licenses for both scenarios (CIM + Inbound Voice vs. CIM + SIP Server) show that SIP variant is slightly expensive (around 10%). I don't think that 10% is "killing argument".

The last think that I would like to write is that SIP Server isn't fully-capable SIP switch. Some other switch providing standard PBX functions like voicemail, number directory, security etc. have to be deployed in case these functionalities are required by customer. And that's the point when Asterisk comes on scene allowing you to build SIP-only contact centre. I know that standard vendors like Avaya or Alcatel does support SIP as well but the support is usually limited and you'll hear often that "we can't guarantee all features will be working correctly when using SIP phones...".

René

[cavagnaro]

I am getting a little bit confused here.
Genesys has:

SIP Server

No TServer with a name like Asterisk TServer or TServer SIP, however SIP Server is a TServer inside, right? yes.

So, for making this SIP Server work we need as usual sdn and tdn licenses which I can extract from my current license file (technically) however according to Genesys commercial guys I must buy new licenses for it to work, also sdn and tdn.

About the issue that Genesys will have to develop those things like voice mail I don't believe so, they can use software that can already do that like Festival or many many more which works on SIP directly. So I keep my idea that might pass sometime where we will see documents on how to use more external software to do it so.

[René]

Hi Cavagnaro,

Genesys licensing is a bit confusing especially when comparing technical licenses (=what is controlled) with business licenses (=what you pay for). However, you (customer) pays for some number of seats enabled for selected media channels (inbound/outbound voice, email etc.). SIP Server is considered to be a media channel - IP Voice. And that's the reason why you have to buy business licenses even you have technical licenses (sdn/tdn) already on place.

As I've written in my previous post the difference between price of CIM+Inbound Voice licenses and CIM+SIP Server licenses isn't huge.

I don't think that Genesys has some issues with adding services like voicemail to SIP Server. The question is if it makes sense for them to do that. Genesys is focused on contact centre business and current version of SIP Server covers that area. But maybe Genesys is planning to make SIP Server fully-capable softswitch in near future but who knows...

R.

[victor]

Hi, Rene,

I was under the impression that Genesys SIP licenses were very expensive.

So, for argument's sake, if I have 1000 seats where I have T-Server, URS, and Nortel and I switch from Genesys T-Server for Nortel to Genesys SIP T-Server, my total cost of GENESYS license that I have paid for so far would only go up by 10%?

I had this image of Genesys SIP license costing almost double...

Best regards,
Vic

[Mango]

Hello,

I guess what seems kind of ridiculus is that sip-voice is considered a separate channel than the standard cim voice. 

On the sip-server being a tserver inside, It is my understanding that sip server uses Asterisk as its' engine under the hood.

Jim

[René]

Mango,

Genesys SIP Server doesn't use Asterisk "as it's engine under the hood". Asterisk could be used to provide services that SIP Server doesn't support like voice-mail but it's an option only. You can use SIP Server standalone and it will work.

Sorry but I don't see anything ridiculous on licensing of SIP Server. Different media channels require different licenses. That's Genesys policy. Especially in case of SIP Server I do understand higher price because SIP Server gives you not only CTI but SIP softswitch as well.

René